General Discussion

Coordinator
Dec 17, 2007 at 5:20 PM
Edited Nov 29, 2011 at 10:05 PM

Talk about whatever you want in this thread!

Coordinator
Dec 17, 2007 at 5:22 PM
Edited Dec 17, 2007 at 5:23 PM
This engine look familiar?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI6r4SxBc6A

:)

It is using a slightly older version of the template engine. Only reason I know the version is because I saw some bugs in the video that I've fixed already.
Dec 18, 2007 at 5:32 AM
Looking forward to see those mech bash the c**** out of eachother :) (Yes I'm a MechWarrior fan ;) )
Dec 18, 2007 at 5:43 AM
I did like the MechWarrior games, though I haven't played any since the DOS days.
Coordinator
Dec 18, 2007 at 5:54 AM
You should've seen MechWarrior on my 8088, each battle took about 10-15 minutes because it ran so slow. Then I tried running it on a DX4/120 and the battle went so far I couldn't stop my locust from running out of bounds within about 15 seconds of starting the match.

Ended up having to get a CPU throttler.
Coordinator
Jan 23, 2008 at 8:44 PM
I like candy. That is all.
Jan 28, 2008 at 1:02 PM
Hi,

How work release life cycle fo QuickStart? How many releases by year? etc.

Jan 28, 2008 at 1:40 PM
The team is releasing versions once all features targeted towards that feature have been completed. So it's difficult to determine how many releases or how far between releases there will be.
Coordinator
Jan 28, 2008 at 1:56 PM
I'd say ideally we'd like to release a version every couple of months, but like Sturm said, it all depends on how fast we can complete our features, and how many features we want per release.
Coordinator
Feb 18, 2008 at 4:41 AM
I'm preparing to build a new computer, and haven't built one in 3-4 years, just wondering if you guys had any feedback on my ideas so far:

Processor: Intel E8400 Core 2 Duo, 3.0Ghz
Video Cards: (2) NVidia 8800 GTS 512mb in SLI
Memory: 2 GB Crucial Ballistix PC2-8500 1066Mhz
PSU: COOLMAX 1200W

Still not sure what motherboard either. NVidia NForce 6-series or 7-series, any suggestions?

Other stuff, new HD, new heatsink and fan, new monitor, etc...

Should I be waiting for the 9-series NVidias? They may be expensive.
Feb 18, 2008 at 10:05 AM
Seems good, expecially the new wolfdale Core 2 Duo. My suggestion would be avoid SLI like the plague, especially if you plan on using Vista. At best, reports Ive read say it gives 20-30% boost in performance. My advice would be take the cash for the secodn card and buy a faster single card. It may not be quite as fast, but the speed would be more conisistent, and it should be cooler and quieter.

Either way, Im jealous, I really need to replace my old 7600gt :)
Feb 18, 2008 at 11:18 AM
You didn't provide any price limit so ...

Mobo: Intel Skulltrail
CPU: 2x Xeon® Processor X5482
Mem: 8GB Kingston HyperX
GFX: Either 8800GS or 8600GT or buy cheap low end and wait for n9

For HDD I would go:
Drive C: 150 GB 10000rpm WD Raptor (OS and want can't be on d:)
Drive D: 2x250 (or 500 if you want to go crazy) GB WD SATA2-300 (Games and program install) as raid 0
Drive E: 2TB WB My Book network drives (For all your coding/films/tv/etc)

For monitor I'm considering either HP or Dell they have some decent 30" monitors.

For case I would go for Antec Performance One (Comes with preinstalled PSUs), and use some sharkoon Silent Eagle low rpm fans (just fille up all slots).

I'm not sure about heatsinks, have't given it much thought.
Coordinator
Feb 18, 2008 at 1:28 PM
I guess I should state a couple things too :oP.

This is purely a gaming machine. That means I need an SLI motherboard. Quad-core processors will begin to become more important with time, but right now clock-speed on a dual-core is more important than having a decent speed quad-core (in games at least). Dual-cores are much more stable with an overclock. The new E8400/E8500's can get up past 4.0Ghz on air! Also, those Xeons look like they kick some serious ass, but $1000 for the Xeon, vs $200 for the E8400.....I am on somewhat of a budget here :oP. 8GB Memory, I wish. I wouldn't be able to use it all though. I very rarely even cache up my full 2GB right now.

The new 8800GTS with 512mb has speeds close to the 8800GT, and is quite a step above the 8600s. I have an 8600 at work, it is actually a little worse than my 7900GS.

I wish I could do all that with the HDs, again...budget. I'm thinking a single 250GB drive, I currently have an older 80GB. I do want a raptor drive, but I might have to add that on later.

As for the monitor, again I'd love a 30", but I'm looking more like 22" at the biggest. I'll only be a couple of feet away from it anyhow.
Feb 18, 2008 at 9:08 PM
I guess that you should go for something like this then:

Mobo: Asus Striker II Formula
CPU: Intel Core2
Mem: 2GB Kingston HyperX
GFX: 3x NVidia 8800 GTS 512mb in SLI (You did want the best sli)
 
HD:  150GB 10000 rpm raptor (OS + Games) and another one for your applications (no games/os)
Coordinator
Feb 18, 2008 at 10:18 PM
I could do 3X SLI, but I'm on a budget, 3X SLI is an extra card and a more expensive motherboard. I might go HyperX if I decide to OC the cpu, but it does 4GHz on air already, I've heard of stuff over 4.5 with special cooling methods.
Feb 19, 2008 at 1:30 AM
You two have waaay too much money to spend on hardware!
Coordinator
Feb 19, 2008 at 1:55 AM
He's the one talking about a $3000-4000 computer, lol. I'm looking more like $1500, and I'm hoping that this new computer will last around 3 years. My 3yr 2mo machine I have now will still run games decently, except the newest ones.

I was honestly considering a PhysX card, but I think that might be overkill, and I could always add it on later.

My only dilemma right now is whether or not to wait for 9 series. If I wait for 9 series maybe the 8 series will drop in price, or the 9 series might have a decent price. I know they're be out in a month or two, but I want a new machine sooner than that. I'm sick of having games on LCDs at non-native resolutions.
Feb 19, 2008 at 6:32 AM
You didn't set out a initial budget so I just provided some ideas.

Since you are on a tight budget I would suggest just going for a single GFX, but get the right mobo and ram, as these are the backbone of it all. You can always upgrade the CPU and add more GFX's later. This way you can buy a single 8800GTS now and play most games without any problem and once the 9series is out you can buy another at reduced price.

Your main concern is the HD, not having a raptor is going to be noticeable. So I would suggest the following
Mobo: Asus Striker II Formula
Mem: 2GB Kingston HyperX
 
CPU: Intel Core2
GFX: 1x NVidia 8800 GTS
HD:  150GB 10000 rpm raptor

It's a bit low on HD space, but just keep your movies and pictures off that machine and you should be ok. This will allow you to add more GFX/HD power without replacing the existing.

I just tried putting together a system for that and I got up on $1500 (without the case though) But since I live in denmark you can most likely find it cheaper in the US.
Coordinator
Feb 19, 2008 at 4:26 PM
It is tough to decide whether I want a faster HD or a faster video card. I would definitely like a raptor for my OS. Damnit Sturm you're increasing my costs! Good points though. I don't think I can do without SLI though......must.....have.....60fps Crysis at native resolution.....
Feb 19, 2008 at 6:03 PM
What motherboard chipset are you planning on getting? I have an nForce 680i motherboard, and it's great, but Vista support is a little lacking. Particularly, HD burst transfer rates are about 70-80% of what they are on XP. I'm not sure if this is a Vista issue or an nVidia driver issue. I don't know how well the Intel chipsets perform in Vista.

If you are able, I would seriously consider 4 GB of RAM for Vista. I had 2 GB initially, and it was fine, but it took awhile to page in and out when I alttab'ed (or even quit) out of a game or was running Maya for awhile then opened Firefox or Visual Studio. When I put in 4 GB, it was a world of difference. I can play games for hours, and it still takes only a second to bring up the Desktop if I alttab or quit out of a game. Even Vista has a hard time hogging 4 GB of RAM. Also, if you're into games like Gothic 3, 4 GB is a must. That game laughs at 2 GB.

I don't have an SLI setup, so I cannot comment on that.
Coordinator
Feb 19, 2008 at 6:13 PM
Haven't decided on mobo just yet. Some motherboards and memory types are listed as Vista ready. I'm still not really sure what that means, it might be related to the burst rate stuff.

I might go 3GB initially, not sure I can afford 4GB. And if I need a raptor drive I'm really pushing things. $1500 is starting to look like $2000.

I was looking at 680i boards, as the 7-series boards are expensive, and I can't see much of a benefit. Looks like I get to do some extra research.
Feb 19, 2008 at 6:20 PM
If you are planning on running Vista, I would wait no the SP1 release, as far as I'm aware there are some nice file access improvements, among others.
Feb 19, 2008 at 6:24 PM
If it's important for you to run Linux, stay away from nForce RAID on your data volumes. I've had issues in the past with accessing my RAID array on Fedora 8.
Coordinator
Feb 19, 2008 at 8:12 PM
I can already run all of my stuff fine on my current Vista machine, with the exception of crashes in Crysis, but they were partially due to my graphics card getting too hot.
Coordinator
Feb 20, 2008 at 5:44 AM
Edited Nov 29, 2011 at 10:07 PM

Alright, I made the purchase.

Video cards: 2x EVGA 8800GTS, 512mb
Mobo: ASUS P5N-D LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 750i SLI
CPU: Intel E8400
Memory: 1x2GB Crucial 1066Mhz PC8500 DDR2
HD: 150GB Raptor 10k rpm.
Monitor: 22" Acer Widescreen LCD.
Power Supply: PC Power & Cooling 750W.
and a copy of Vista Home Premium

I'll probably have an extra 2GB of ram as my next upgrade. And EVGA will let my upgrade to the 9-series video cards when they come out, for a price. I may not really need the 9-series cards anyway.

Coordinator
Mar 6, 2008 at 1:20 PM
Experimental Microsoft OS, written with managed code:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080304-singularity-microsofts-research-os-available-for-download.html

Interesting stuff.
Coordinator
Mar 6, 2008 at 3:00 PM
Edited Mar 6, 2008 at 3:01 PM
Oh, and an update my new computer (couple of posts above):
Currently running at 3.81Ghz, getting around 17,500 marks in 3DMark06. Still OCing further :)

Don't think I'll be getting the 9-series cards. Turns out the 9-series 9800GX2s use the same GPU as in my 8800GTS 512s, a G92 chip, there are just 2 on a single card. Wouldn't be worth the increased cost. I was hoping for some big architectural changes, possible PPU stuff going on, and DX10.1 support, which isn't happening.

A side-effect to my new computer is that I needed to sell my old one for some spare cash. I no longer have my old ATi Radeon 9800 to test with. So who has the new base-line spec computer for testing from here on in?
Mar 6, 2008 at 6:16 PM

LordIkon wrote:
Experimental Microsoft OS, written with managed code:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080304-singularity-microsofts-research-os-available-for-download.html

Interesting stuff.


Wow, I'm surprised they released the code for that. Of course with that license I'm sure many in non-academic fields won't be able to play around with it or even download/view the source code.

Garbage collecting kernel memory. Something about that just seems wrong to me. :)

The kernel programming by contract idea is quite interesting. I'm not sure if .NET OS programming will ever make the cut, but the concepts presented here are certainly valid. You would need a damn good compiler to make an operating system in C# (or the subset of C# that they use) that runs efficiently.
Coordinator
Mar 7, 2008 at 4:43 AM
I wonder what the main benefits of an OS made in C# are? Obviously there are some major benefits or they likely wouldn't be wasting their time on it.

Also, just got my new DVD-ROM in and my VS discs worked fine. I've got to download some 500mb service packs for VS and Vista and then XNA, and probably something else I'm not thinking of. I should be up and running everything again sometime late tonight or tomorrow. Then I'll get working on finishing up the input changes.

Sturm, you still alive?
Mar 7, 2008 at 3:13 PM

LordIkon wrote:
I wonder what the main benefits of an OS made in C# are? Obviously there are some major benefits or they likely wouldn't be wasting their time on it.


Theoretically, you could have a globally managed memory heap and have all the memory management benefits you see today in .NET, just at a global scale. Whether or not this would work well in practice, I don't know. I honestly don't see C# being a great OS development language, even with great compilers, at least not for the lower-level grunt work. You would need a highly efficient way to call native assembly routines. There is a significant amount of OS code that is still written in assembly, for the simple reasons that it needs to be fast as possible, and some things just require assembly, not even (standard) C will work. For instance, (on Intel x86/x64) setting up GDT/IDT tables, moving the processor from 16-bit to 32-bit to 64-bit mode, handling interrupts, and the list goes on. At the very least you need inline assembly to do these things. Now it seems like Singularity's approach is to write a low-level native hardware abstraction layer, then write the higher-level kernel functions in C#/Sing#. This is an interesting idea, assuming you can eliminate the overhead of switching between native and managed code, or just completely eliminate the "managed" part and compile directly to machine code at compile-time. You'll lose some of the benefits of a managed environment, but you get some of the nice C# language features.

The main benefit and area of research here that I see is the programming-by-contract idea. This is a powerful idea if compiler support is available, and can greatly increase driver reliability. Of course, how many device driver writers would actually adopt this approach is up for debate.


Also, just got my new DVD-ROM in and my VS discs worked fine. I've got to download some 500mb service packs for VS and Vista and then XNA, and probably something else I'm not thinking of. I should be up and running everything again sometime late tonight or tomorrow. Then I'll get working on finishing up the input changes.


I'm still tied up until Easter. Stupid tests. :)

Coordinator
Mar 13, 2008 at 5:14 AM
Edited Mar 13, 2008 at 5:56 AM
~17,900 3DMark06 with new system :)
My 7900gs laptop gets around 3,900
My ATi Radeon 9800se I used to have won't even run 3DMark06
3DMark06 seems very biased toward CPU speeds however. The Crysis benchmark seems like a much better one for graphics performance benchmarking.

Just miscellaneous computer hardware conversation, since it is the gen. discussion thread.

Edit: Just as reference I'm getting 190-250fps on average full screen 1680x1050 with QS 0.19
Mar 13, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Nice! I just ran the default free 3DMark06 and got 11,316.
Coordinator
Mar 13, 2008 at 5:35 PM
What are your specs? And are you OC'ing anything?

At complete stock settings for CPU and GPUs I was getting ~14,400.
Mar 13, 2008 at 6:31 PM
Everything is at stock clocking.

CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.4Ghz
RAM: 4 GB DDR2-800
Video Card: NVidia 8800 GTX
Motherboard: eVGA 680i SLI

I'm sure your SLI'd 8800's help your score a bit. :)

I tried overclocking to 2.7 GHz and got 12,053. Anything more than that and Vista wouldn't even boot. I tried playing around with it for awhile, but I couldn't get anything to work. Sometimes Vista would boot, but it wouldn't detect a video card (oddly enough, I still had a desktop). I was hoping to get 3.2 GHz out of this Q6600 someday, but it looks like either the motherboard or RAM or both don't want to cooperate.

What BIOS settings (bus speeds, memory speeds, memory/FSB linkage, voltages) are you using to get up to 3.8GHz? I heard the Q6600's are supposed to be good for up to 3.6GHz sometimes on air cooling, I wouldn't mind getting even above 3.0GHz.
Coordinator
Mar 13, 2008 at 7:35 PM
My NB voltage is a 1.44v, SB is at auto, and HT (cpu vtt) voltage is at 1.44v also.

nForce SLI boards have FSB holes, for example mine is unstable when my FSB is anywhere between 1420-1580! I'm not sure what your multiplier is, but I would try some significant jumps in the FSB just to see if you might skip over a "FSB hole". Also, unlink the memory and put it as a speed you know is stable, so you can eliminate that as your problem on an OC.

I'd read over the forums at www.overclock.net. Seems like half the people there have a q6600, I'm sure they could give you some exact settings.

OCing the video card is pretty beneficial as well. And much easier, you can OC it on the fly and test the results without having to reboot/test/reboot/test....

SLI definitely helped my score. I've seen single 8800GTS 512's getting around 15k with q6600's and OCs on the card and CPU, I assume they'd be in the 12k range with no OCs on a single card.
Mar 14, 2008 at 3:26 PM
I give up. I read over the guides at overclock.net, and they all seem to say the same thing. Running a QDR FSB of 1333 should be cake on stock voltages with a Q6600 G0. That's just not happening with my system. I've tried linked/unlinked RAM, I've disabled all of the options they say to disable, I've tried removing all but one 1 GB RAM stick, I've tried a different DDR 800 1 GB RAM stick, I've played with the voltages for hours. The same problem: Vista/XP won't boot. It gets to the point where it should switch to graphics mode and display the login prompt, but it just reboots. I've played with every memory timing/voltage on both sets of DDR2 800 RAM I have, and nothing.

I just have a bad part somewhere.
Coordinator
Mar 14, 2008 at 3:30 PM
Quitter!
Mar 14, 2008 at 4:48 PM
True, but apparently for good reason! The gurus on overclock.net have spoken: the eVGA 680i AR/TR boards are not overclockable beyond 2.8GHz or so with quad-cores. I needed the A1 board. Figures, I buy the one 680i board that can't overclock quad-cores...
Mar 14, 2008 at 4:51 PM
How's your 750i board? I'm debating buying a new motherboard, since I have extra RAM and a Core 2 Duo that I can use to build another workhorse system. Your ASUS 750i board on Newegg is pretty cheap, but a 780i is also tempting.
Coordinator
Mar 15, 2008 at 5:29 AM
Edited Mar 15, 2008 at 5:36 AM
If I could do it again I'd get the 780i. This board can't go past 1033fsb with RAM, so I'm not even able to run at the 1066 speed it is rated for, much less even OC it. It is also very fussy about settings, but I've heard most nForce chipsets are.

If you intend to go SLI ever then I would go with the eVGA 780i, otherwise I would look at brands like DFI, Gigabyte, MSI. I can't trade this mobo for a different kind without losing my activation for my OEM vista. Unless I got lucky and got a new number from them, and it just isn't worth all of that trouble to get past 3.8Ghz. I'm happy where I'm at :), it was just a pain to get the board to be happy at these speeds.

EDIT: And sorry to hear your board has a 2.8Ghz limitation, the truly sucks. I thought I was pissed about my RAM limitation. :oP

I should also mention that with each of my two cards each taking 2 slots apiece there are many things on the board blocked by them. The cards cover 2 1/2 of my sata ports, the audio connection for optical drives, bios battery, and southbridge heatsinks.
Mar 15, 2008 at 6:08 PM
I may have to pick up a 780i board. I didn't even think about Vista activation, but at the same time I really don't care.
Mar 15, 2008 at 6:19 PM
On a brighter note, those big nasty tests I was talking about are this thursday and friday. After I get through those, I should have free time again to get some stuff done on this project. :)

Kind of sad that we haven't really made any progress in a couple of months.
Coordinator
Mar 17, 2008 at 5:08 AM
I got an input poller :OP, that's about it.

I guess I can finish that up, as sturms gone (so it seems) I won't need his permission to alter the remaining mouse stuff to finish it up for review. Oh, and it seems you'll be doing all my reviews for awhile... :)
Mar 17, 2008 at 4:23 PM
That's sort of my point in the other threads. No offense intented to anyone, I'm as guilty as the next developer, but do we have the time and manpower to efficiently continue this project with its current scope? We have 2-3 people that will be able to put in maybe 10 hours a week into this project.
Mar 17, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Maybe some 'ads' in the XNA forums and other community boards could help to bring in new people?
Mar 17, 2008 at 5:16 PM
While this idea is attractive, making public announcements for help with an open-source project may not be a great idea. Not to sound arrogant, but the typical XNA developer is not that technical-oriented, many have never programmed before. A project like this requires previous programming knowledge, and experience with lower-level programming. Remember that this project is aimed at making it easier for the non-technical people to make games. To that end, we need technical people to write the middleware layers. If we just open up the project to the XNA forums, the leads will be spending all of their time reviewing and correcting the work of those just learning how to program and not be able to get anything done themselves. Unfortunately, this implies some level of quality control with the people accepted as developers. I, as a lead, would need confidence that the new developers are able to handle somewhat complicated programming tasks.

Alternately, we could run on a submissions-based policy. Instead of just accepting developers, we could accept patch submissions from people who want to contribute to the project. Then, if they want to join the project, that's fine. But again, that would require the leads to spend their time reviewing submissions instead of extending the code.
Mar 18, 2008 at 2:22 AM

shawmishrak wrote: but do we have the time and manpower to efficiently continue this project with its current scope?

No offence, but are we in a hurry to finish that project ?

... the typical XNA developer is not that technical-oriented, many have never programmed before. A project like this requires previous programming knowledge, and experience with lower-level programming ...
we simply need some sort of interview process , as usual when you're welcoming someone in a team

the leads will be spending all of their time reviewing and correcting the work of those just learning how to program
Not the leads, the other developers must review the work yes. This is perfectly usual in a team work, once unit testing is done, the leader assign another deveveloper the task to review the code. That is common practice in the industry. Each developer should have tasks assigned corresponding to their level of experience, which is not hard to figure out after a good interview.

... this implies some level of quality control with the people accepted as developers. I, as a lead, would need confidence that the new developers are able to handle somewhat complicated programming tasks. ...
Quality control, no i would say code review first.
Unit testing, Code review, Unit test review, System test.
Now as you say, you as a lead just need to assign tasks adapted to each one of us, of course not letting juniors putting their hands into the Scene management or physics interfaces ! This is a normal job for a lead.
Mar 18, 2008 at 2:23 AM
That said, I can take care of the interviews if you want.
Mar 18, 2008 at 2:51 AM
I don't like the word "interview" with open-source projects. Of course, our definitions may be completely different. What about going on what individuals want to contribute to the project? Maybe request a sample of previous work? It's that what you mean by "interview," that's fine. When I think of "interview," I think of a dark, windowless room with one light bulb hanging from the ceiling, and a 250 lb. built dude interrogating you.
Mar 18, 2008 at 3:46 AM
LOL I love this definition of an interview.

But asking sample of previous work is more frightening for the incomer,
What I meant really is that we should ask the person to list his/her skills , order by experience level; We can eventually provide a choice of levels : Novice (<1yr), Intermediate (1 to 5 yrs), Expert (>5yrs) or Master (>10yrs)

Then we would be able to give him the list of areas where he would be the best fit and perform the most helpful to work;

What do u think ?
Mar 18, 2008 at 4:02 AM
You may want to pre-create a skills list, and let them judge themselves based on their knowledge of the skills we need on the team.
Mar 18, 2008 at 5:44 AM
Sorry if I was unclear, but that was exactly what I meant.
Coordinator
Mar 18, 2008 at 2:54 PM
The easiest way I can think of that requires the least amount of time from coordinators is a code sample with binary for either C++, C#, and/or XNA, along with a short description of their experience, amount of experience, and what they desire to help with or work on.

Basically a combination of the things already mentioned in this thread.
Mar 18, 2008 at 3:31 PM
Yeah, that's workable.

Again, not to be arrogant, but I think we need to insist that they have at least some prior programming experience. It doesn't have to be in C#/XNA, but at least some experience with the general idea of programming.
Coordinator
Mar 18, 2008 at 6:13 PM
I agree. We won't have time to correct mistakes a new person will make, or to train them on the basics that they could learn off basic experience. We wouldn't want to be teaching someone object oriented programming, that should be learned elsewhere.
Mar 18, 2008 at 9:55 PM
I totally agree to that
Mar 18, 2008 at 10:44 PM
How's version 0.20 coming along, is it possible to tell about how many weeks before the release? Thinking about porting some XNA code of mine to the engine, but would be nice to have the managers in place first.

Been following the project for awhile now. You guys are doing a nice work with it for sure, keep on kicking! :)
Mar 18, 2008 at 10:47 PM
Edited Mar 18, 2008 at 10:49 PM


Zenox wrote:
Been following the project for awhile now. You guys are doing a nice work with it for sure, keep on kicking! :)


Are you somewhat interested in being involved in it as a developer ?
Mar 19, 2008 at 7:23 AM
Edited Mar 19, 2008 at 7:24 AM

clertem wrote:


Zenox wrote:
Been following the project for awhile now. You guys are doing a nice work with it for sure, keep on kicking! :)


Are you somewhat interested in being involved in it as a developer ?


Don't know how much time I've got left to take responsibility for complete parts of the engine as I have loads of things to do (renovate our house, kids, work and so on). Wouldn't want to risk delaying the project and have enough of timetables to follow at work (developing projects for clients). If I stumble upon minor things while using the engine I'd be glad to send patches or come up with suggestions though.
Mar 19, 2008 at 10:00 PM
Sorry I disappeared for a while.. but my exams/coursework deadlines have (mostly) passed, so I'm sure I can help around now if its needed.
Mar 19, 2008 at 11:37 PM
No worries, I'm in the same situation.
Mar 21, 2008 at 12:42 AM
Hi everyone,

I'm fairly new to XNA, and this quick start engine has helped quite a bit for my first game project. I have been having some problems with lag though. The biggest things have been with the camera rotation and input from both the keyboard and the game controller are pretty slow. I'm using the latest Quick Start build with 2.5g ram on a 64 bit dual core processor, with a 128mb Radeon graphics card.

I was playing around with the Lock_Framerate to unlock the timed rates, but the engine still seems to be running at only 5-10 FPS.

Any suggestions on how to get it running smoother?
Mar 21, 2008 at 12:48 AM
Are you running the older template engine (0.182, default in Releases tab), or the newer 0.19 (Source Code tab)?
Coordinator
Mar 21, 2008 at 1:14 AM
If you're running 0.182b you should try lowering the quality setting in CommonVars.h to Low or Med.

The 128mb video card is likely the culprit. I ran the engine on my old 128mb I used to have and got around 24fps. There are some optimizations to 0.182b that never got made due to the engine getting re-designed for 0.19. I can assure you the new engine (0.19 or newer) will perform much better under the same conditions.

If you're using 0.182b I recommend disabling components until you can isolate which one is causing the largest loss of framerate. Water and Weather tend to be the biggest hit on performance.

Are you running in debug mode? If so, in 0.19 you'll see a big performance hit on the physics (boxes in this case). For example on my laptop I get 19fps in debug, 120fps on non-debug or release (CTRL + F5 for non-debug, F5 for debug).
Mar 21, 2008 at 1:26 AM
I'm using 0.182b built in release mode. I figured it may be this video card. I'll try playing with it, and let you know what happens. Thanks for your help.
Coordinator
Mar 25, 2008 at 4:26 AM
Grrr, always the stupid little things that get to me.

I don't remember how to set it up so that "cpc" works for any directory in the computer. Brain fart. Please help Shaw so I can review your stuff.
Mar 25, 2008 at 1:57 PM
If you have Sturm's build environment, that would work. Otherwise, go to Control Panel, System, Advanced System Settings, Advanced Tab, Environment Variables.... Under "User variables for xxx," find PATH. Click on it, then select Edit.... At the end of "Variable value,", append ";<pathtocpc_exe>". Don't forget the semi-colon if it's not already there! It's very important. :)

Then just re-open a command-shell, and you're good to go.
Mar 25, 2008 at 2:03 PM
See, this is why we need SVN. None of this patch shit. Just check-out revision xxx of branch yyy.
Coordinator
Mar 25, 2008 at 5:56 PM
Edited Mar 25, 2008 at 5:57 PM
Agreed, it will be nice to be rid of cpc

And thanks, I'll try and review your stuff tonight. My workload this week got ramped up a bit so no gaurantees.
Mar 30, 2008 at 12:24 AM
This is sure of topic, but it said I could post whatever the hell i wanted here so I do so :)
I just want to say, thank You for this amazing engine!
I just found out about it, and downloaded it yesterday.
This is outstanding, Im looking at the OuickStart Engine and I'm just stunned.
To come this far on my own would had taken me like one year or two.
Coordinator
Mar 30, 2008 at 5:26 AM
v0.182 was pretty much made on my own, with some help from tutorials also. I actually only took around 3-4 months, few hours each night on average. But to be honest I'd worked out about 50% of the terrain system over months of previous experience in XNA. Sky stuff I knew already. Anyway, yeah, I guess if I started with nothing it might've taken me a year or so. v0.182 is currently the best looking, and simplest to learn, but the newer engine will soon be much more powerful :), I just don't see many people wanting to use v0.19-v0.20 because it lacks the pretty stuff, like sky, water.

Thanks for the compliments, glad the engine could help, that has always been its intent.
Coordinator
Mar 31, 2008 at 5:14 AM
Edited Mar 31, 2008 at 5:15 AM
In case you guys haven't heard.....

Creative Labs F---s up, big time!

http://www.overclock.net/hardware-news/313210-ocn-creative-s-fall-glory-35.html

Oh, and I won't be buying any of their stuff anytime soon. :)
Mar 31, 2008 at 1:35 PM
That's going to be an interesting story to follow over the next couple of weeks.

The sad thing is most companies have similar practices. HP won't release Vista drivers for my laser printer, and it's only a couple of years old. The same is true for my parents' HP digital camera. They bought it a little after Vista was released, and this past fall I set up a new computer for them (pre-installed with Vista x86) and found out they can't use their digital camera anymore.

Overall, I have better driver support in Linux x64 than I do on Vista. Then, SP1 came along and now my desktop freezes for about 15 seconds every hour or so. {rolls eyes} Microsoft is on a slight decline as well. I know a lot of people that are pissed off about Vista.

I've been contemplating just setting up XNA Game Studio + Visual Studio in a virtualization layer in Ubuntu and working on the Xbox code with that.
Coordinator
Mar 31, 2008 at 4:24 PM
The problem I see with what Creative has done is, 1.) They list Vista compatible on the sound cards in question, 2.) It isn't like they just didn't invest the time to make proper drivers, they actually modded the drivers so certain features/software didn't work in Vista, intentionally. All this modder did was open up those things that were disabled, and they worked.

HP likely just chose not to write out the support for Vista for certain printers, which is still bad business in my opinion, but at least they didn't take drivers that would've worked in Vista, and then cripple them purposefully to get you to buy new stuff (at least not that we know of).

Sorry to hear about your Vista issues, SP1 seems to be working great on my end, after a shaky install though.
Mar 31, 2008 at 5:17 PM
Agreed. Creative should be taken to court for that action.

I just hate how companies like HP use the release of a sub-par OS like Vista in order to force you to buy new hardware, knowing damn well that average consumers who buy new computers have no choice but to use Vista. Luckily, I was able to find "alternate" drivers that work about 60% of the time. If I go to HP's driver site, and type "Laserjet 1012" then select Vista, I get a message saying: sorry, your hardware is not Vista compatible. I get to differ...
Mar 31, 2008 at 6:08 PM
Also, I am still convinced that we need to concentrate on a game. Otherwise, we have no concrete requirements.
Coordinator
Mar 31, 2008 at 7:09 PM
Edited Mar 31, 2008 at 7:10 PM
For a printer that is only a couple of years old, that is pretty sad. HP is getting lazy, Sounds like your next printer should be through someone else. Epsons are great, but the ink is a pain as the cartridges are harder to find. I do like the fact I can replace the colors seperately, as I would often run out of one color before the others.

I agree we should concentrate on a game. We would need to be extremely patient though. We would start the game, find things we needed from the engine, and the game would halt and wait for engine progress. I would give us a sense of things we need though.

I don't think we'll get very far without an entity heirarchy and scene design though.
Mar 31, 2008 at 8:09 PM
Yeah, I'm never buying HP again.

I definitely agree on parallel development. We need to code what we need for the engine, and the best way to do that is to have concrete requirements from a game. Even the game type can influence low-level details like scene design.
Apr 1, 2008 at 10:31 PM
It's the same for us (Ankur and I), we basically are filling our game's gameplay design paper as from now, at the same time we're doing the physical design of the server and client application. Ankur is working on the server part, and i'll be making a mock client app, ready-to-plug into QS when the entity hierarchy and scene systems will be on.

Should we open a thread about the Entity hierarchy and scene design ?
Coordinator
Apr 2, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Edited Apr 2, 2008 at 12:25 AM
I believe there is such a thread, I'll look for it.

https://www.codeplex.com/Thread/View.aspx?ProjectName=QuickStartEngine&ThreadId=21948
This is the link to the scene manager discussion.

I don't see the entity heirarchy one yet, but I know it was discussed somewhere.
Apr 3, 2008 at 2:37 AM
Guys,

we need a proper forum, this one starts to be a full mess.

We need categories etc etc... This Codeplex forum stinks and is not efficient, crappy when searching for things.We need phpBB somewhere.

I'll investigate that.
Apr 3, 2008 at 2:48 AM
Edited Apr 3, 2008 at 7:51 AM
I've create a space at freeforums.org :
http://xnaquickstart.freeforums.org

I invite you to register there.
Dec 27, 2009 at 11:34 PM

I am wondering if this engine is open source, because im wanting to write a 3d engine but i need a base to start on. So I was thinking of QS. I will give you guys credit.

Thanks.

Coordinator
Apr 1, 2010 at 11:16 PM

Yes, whenever you download something from codeplex it will give you the licensing terms before it'll let you download. Feel free to use the engine for whatever you'd like. :)